ASL's Dave Andrew on fleet modernization and innovation opportunity

ASL Aviation Holdings is the largest ACMI carrier group in Europe, operating five airlines across the continent along with two affiliate airlines in Thailand and South Africa. ASL is in the midst of introducing twenty 737-800BCFs which will complement, or in some cases replace, fifty 737 Classic freighters spread across the group fleet. While cargo is the overwhelming focus of the group’s operation, some of ASL’s airlines had exposure to the passenger business prior to the pandemic, offsetting strong demand for ASL’s freighter ACMI services. During an exclusive Fireside Chat at Cargo Facts EMEA, Cargo Facts caught up with Dave Andrew, who was appointed CEO of ASL Aviation Holdings effective July 13, 2020, to discuss his vision for the airline and the fleet in 2021, and beyond. Cargo Facts : If we look back at 2020, the ASL group includes both passenger and cargo divisions and a mix of fleet types. What was growth like for ASL across its various segments last year? Dave Andrew : We’re very thankful that we have a blend or a mix of business within the group. It was, nevertheless, the worst year that we’ve had in our history, in line with many of the aviation industry groups at the moment. So yes, although we saw strong demand, and particularly yields in the long-haul cargo business, we were able to add some additional capacity in that market during last year. At the same time, we unfortunately had to scale back a lot in our passenger business. So it was very difficult on both sides to be able to add capacity, but the operation was extremely challenging, just dealing with a pandemic. We had crews operating in and out of China on a regular basis, as well as all over the world, which was very tough. And then, of course, the impact that it had on the passenger business was significant. CF : What are some of the high-level strategic initiatives that you’re undertaking in 2021 to make for a more prosperous year? DA : We are certainly looking hard and are busy refocusing our passenger business, which is obviously a big impact for us, particularly in our European operations, so trying to scale that down a bit to meet what we think is certainly a lesser demand for this year. We’re not too sure where that goes in the future, but refocusing is something we really are prioritizing at the moment. We’ve also launched a very ambitious project within our European operations to try and extract some of the benefits that we can on the European multi-AOCs that we have. The group grew by acquisition, so by the very fact that we acquired various businesses, we acquired the number of AOCs that we have. Over the years, we’ve actually scaled that down already. We started off with nine a couple of years ago, and we are down to five or six at the moment. The benefit, obviously, is each one of them has its own historic traffic rights. Some of them are dedicated to certain customers, certain fleets. So there certainly are benefits. The disadvantage is, of course, if you have the same structure in various places, you’re doing things multiple times, and that’s really what we’re trying to look at doing now: to standardize, to make it easier and simplified, but then also to try and only do things once where we can, and enhance the centralization of the bits that we can centralize to try and get rid of some of those duplications. CF : By our count, you’ve already taken five or six recently converted -800BCFs. And you have plenty more on the way. What does the service introduction timeline look like for these conversions on order? DA : The 737-800BCF program is a big program for us, something we’re very proud of. We committed to twenty of those conversions. We actually have ten committed at the moment, and by the end of this month, we will have six of them in service. The remaining four of the first tranche of ten will be in service toward the end of October. We are busy at the moment with feedstock for the next ten, which would start early next year. We're hoping by the end of 2022 or early 2023, to have all twenty in service and operating. There is strong demand for the narrowbody Classic freighters as well. Hopefully that will allow us to extend the life of our owned aircraft a little bit longer than we originally anticipated and will allow us to keep the Classics operating, on new routes. CF : How have growing e-commerce volumes manifested in demand for CMI lift in some of the regions you serve? DA : It has become a significant part of our business, not just aviation, but the whole logistics space. I’m sure that’s going to continue to grow going forward. At the moment, probably about 10%-12% of our fleet is occupied in the e-commerce business, some directly, some of it sort of partially where we have partial loads from them. So it is a significantly growing part of the business and something that will continue to do so going forward. CF: ASL has added a couple of 747Fs to its fleet. What are your thoughts on expansion opportunities for that platform or other large widebody platforms? DA: We’d certainly like to add some more to that fleet, particularly in the current market. Right now they’re in high demand and very few units are available, if any. We certainly have to look at it longer term and at what’s coming down the line. We have the 777-300ER converted freighter, which I think will become a good freighter, and will certainly be a good alternative, possibly, for the 747-400Fs that are slowly getting to the end. CF: In line with fleet modernization, there is the sustainability component of bringing in newer, more fuel-efficient aircraft and technology. For ASL as a whole, what are you thinking in terms of near-term innovation priorities for ASL? DA: We have actually launched what we call ASL Cargo Vision, because we do believe that cargo will lead a lot of these innovation drives to new technology, because I think it’s a lot easier to justify flying a pilotless electric freighter airplane than a passenger airplane, so cargo is certainly going to play a big part in that change going forward. The forum we’ve set up has a number of partners who are innovators and leaders in their various fields, and then together, we keep our customers abreast of what’s happening so that we can try and see how best we can engage on some of these technologies to provide a better service, or a complementary service, to our customers going forward. Below is the full recording of the Fireside Chat at Cargo Facts EMEA 2021, featuring Senior Editor Charles Kauffman and Dave Andrew, CEO of ASL Aviation Holdings. See our full coverage of Cargo Facts EMEA . A transcript is available below. This transcript has been generated by software and is being presented as is. Some transcription errors may remain. Charles Kauffman Hello, everyone, and welcome back for our fireside chat session. For those of you joining our virtual audience today. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Charles Kauffman, Senior Editor of cago facts. And I will be interviewing our distinguished guest this session. Before we get started, just a reminder that if you have any questions you'd like our guest to address, please submit them through the chat in the event platform. It is now my great pleasure and privilege to welcome Dave Andrew, Chief Executive Officer of ASL aviation holdings to join me on our virtual stage. Hi, Dave. Welcome. Dave Andrew Charles, thank you very much. Thanks for the opportunity. Charles Kauffman Dave, you were appointed to group CEO, effective July 13 2020. Last year, what was it like to be handed the reins of Europe's largest cargo ACI provider at such an interesting time for aviation generally Dave Andrew chose you, you're certainly very appreciative of the opportunity and very excited about it. But as you say, it was a really daunting time in aviation history. But you know, I think thankfully there is our group has a very good balance of business. So we didn't just have passenger business, we also had a good freight operation, which we had a lot to be thankful for. And we also have a great team of people that I sell. So, you know, we managed to keep the operation going very successfully, right through the pandemic, and, you know, our people's commitment and support and all that certainly made that transition a lot easier. But it certainly was daunting. Yeah. Charles Kauffman And speaking of experience, your career with ASL goes back 30 years to when you joined staff, air and the airlines passenger and cargo services. And within that fleets. We saw the Hercules and broader humanitarian operation, while they expect much of our conversation to focus on other aircraft types. I'm something of a hurt fan. What does demand for for Hercules, like aircraft look like in today's market? And, you know, looking at the ACL group today, could you see it success or the LM 100 j, fitting into to the future group portfolio? Dave Andrew To others good to hear that you're a fan, we certainly are as well. I mean, the hook is really a very versatile airplane, in fact, certainly the most versatile within our fleet. And, you know, our business grew out of what the hook allowed us to do, and allowed us to not just do the exciting things like air drops and operating until the ice in Antarctica and Antarctica. But it certainly grew us, you know, all around the world. So that's how we really eventually invested in Europe and out of that investment and the operation. Yeah, is where the SL group group. So you know, I think there certainly will be a demand for that airplane that certainly is unique in the service and the capability that it can provide, and particularly in Aden relief market, which will continue as we know going forward. We did look, I think you're aware we signed an LR with Lockheed A number of years ago to look at it but you know, the challenges in those markets which are really largely sort of donor funded Very difficult to put a brand new, very expensive airplane back into use in those markets, but it is certainly something we'd still like to keep looking at. It is a big market and there is certainly business day. So yeah. Charles Kauffman So not not impossible, but Okay. Great. So if we look back at 2020, as a whole, it has been widely reported, you know, how strong of a year it was for for wide body freighter operators with with capacity of the NSL group includes both passenger and cargo divisions and a mix of Fleet types. Could you speak a bit to what growth was like for ASL across its various segments last year? Dave Andrew Charles, your writing and as I said earlier, and we're very thankful that we have a blend or a mix of business within the group, which we had a lot to be thankful for. You know, it was still nevertheless, our worst year that we've had in our history, I mean, really in line with many more of our many of the aviation industry groups at the moment. So yes, although we saw strong demand, and particularly yields in the long haul cargo business, and we were thankful enough to be able to add some additional capacity in that market during last year. You know, at the same time, we unfortunately had to scale back a lot in our passenger business. So it was very difficult on both sides, but to be able to add capacity, but the operation was extremely challenging, just dealing with a pandemic. You know, we had crews operating in and out of China on a regular basis, as well as all over the world. So really, very tough. And then, of course, the impact that it had on the passenger business was significant. A difficult year, as you say. Charles Kauffman That's that's certainly not not an overstatement. What are what are some of the high level strategic initiatives that you're you're undertaking in 2021, to, to make for a more prosperous here. Dave Andrew So as I said, we certainly looking hard and busy refocusing our passenger business, which is obviously a big impact for us, particularly in in our European operations. So trying to scale that down a bit to meet what we think is a certainly a lesser demand for this year, we're not too sure where that goes in the future. But certainly refocusing, that is something we really prioritizing at the moment, we've also launched a very ambitious project within our European operations to try and extract some of the benefits that we can on the European multi, multi iocs that we have. So to try and simplify the operation by way of standardizing and try to extract more of the benefits of centralizing some of those benefits within the group. Charles Kauffman So when you're, when you mentioned centralizing benefits within within the group, and if we take that a step back, what are what are some of the advantages or disadvantages of having different aocs? across Europe? And when I when I hear you are in my correct in understanding that potentially consolidation among those, those aocs is being considered. Dave Andrew As I mean, you know, the group grew by acquisition. So by the very fact that we acquired various businesses, we acquired the number of AR C's that we have had, over the years, we've actually scaled that down already. We started off I think we had nine a couple of years ago is we down to five or six at the moment. So the benefits obviously, is each one of them has their own historic traffic rights. Some of them are dedicated to certain customers, certain fleets. So there certainly are benefits. The disadvantages is, of course, if you have the same structure in various places, you're doing things multiple times. And that's really what we're trying to look at doing now is to standardize Firstly, to make it easier and simplified, but then also to try and only do things once where we can enhance the sort of standardized at all centralization of the bits that we can centralize to try and get rid of some of those duplications. Charles Kauffman Okay, understood. But then looking back at the beginning of 2021, ASL did establish a new carrier in the UK. You know, looking at this project, in particular, when did you decide that a UK a OC was was necessary? And what sorts of other opportunities do you see with with this, this new startup, new airline and in particular, Dave Andrew was an interesting, interesting question. I mean, at the beginning of last year, everybody was sort of readily assuring us that everything would continue pretty much as normal. But I think as the Brexit discussions continued, it became quite apparent that if we wanted to continue into UK operations for our customers, we would have to have an IOC to cover that to at least to be sure that we could do it and hence the decision to launch saoc which, thankfully, we were able to achieve early part of this year. So I think we certainly see there could be some additional opportunities for that going forward. But if we didn't have it, we certainly would have had to give up some of the business we have now with existing customers. Charles Kauffman Okay, and I do want to move on to a discussion of lead, because there are some really exciting changes there. But we do have an audience question that that does this follow up with some of the difficulties that we've seen on the passenger side? broadly speaking, how are governments providing support to air cargo operations? during this difficult time? And what more would you recommend governments do? At this point? Dave Andrew Sorry, Charles, to air cargo operations, or to passenger operation? Charles Kauffman So it's actually it's the question is air cargo specific? Okay. Dave Andrew Very little, actually, if anything, in fact, I think some of the government requirements in various countries, which all understandable, have actually made the operation signix, significantly more expensive, just because of the various things that we've had to do because of the pandemic. But I mean, from an age point of view, very little, if anything, there are some supports more for the passenger type of operations that we have, but not on the progress. Charles Kauffman Okay, and then, I mean, in your opinion, do you think more is necessary? Or is this support really going where it's needed most on the passenger side? Dave Andrew I think, you know, certain of the the regulatory type of things can certainly be helpful, you know, if we could get a standardized way or, I mean, there was a lot of work done at the beginning of the pandemic, to try and create a green line to allow the crew, for example, to move through without having to worry too much about some of the other restrictions that were placed on people traveling in and out of the country. So if we could get things like that further sort of finalized and agreed within the different countries, that would certainly help. Charles Kauffman Okay, and moving on to the fleet. As we've briefly touched on, one of the more exciting developments relates to ASL seven through seven 800 BCF fleet. By our count, you've already taken what five or six recently converted 800 BCF. And you have plenty more on the way. What does the service introduction timeline look like for these these conversions on on order? Dave Andrew tells you right, the 800 VCF program is a big program for us something we're very proud of. Yes, we committed to 20 of those conversions. So we actually have 10 committed at the moment, and you're on by the end of this month, we will have six of them in service. For the remaining four of the first tranche of tend to be in service towards the end of October. We busy at the moment with feedstock for the next 10, which would start early next year. So we're hoping by the end of 20 to early 23. To have all 20 at least have the first tranche in service and operating So Charles Kauffman okay, and with these aircraft coming in is is most of that capacity already contracted out to, to a customer or someone that still still available. Dave Andrew At the moment, we operate in excess of 50 Classic fighters, so a lot of this will be replacements. So we will replace some of the classics and upgrade with 800. But we are hoping that some of it at least maybe not in the first batch, but some of the second will be additional new work as well. We've certainly signed already one or two of these up for additional contracts new growth that we're looking to pursue as well. Charles Kauffman Oh, right. And certainly, with strong demand on some lanes, has that reshaped your your retirement expectations for for some of the 737 Classic classics in service of those timelines been revised at all? And, you know, what will their retirement timeline looks like for those? Dave Andrew I certainly think it has Yes, I mean, there is strong demand even I mean as much as what you see in the wide body but certainly in the narrowbody cast exciters as well. There is good demand. And hopefully that will allow us to extend our owned aircraft a little bit longer than we originally anticipated. So and hopefully as I say that it will allow us for the mind to keep the kind of sticks operating on new routes, maybe on new opportunities. We introduced the new aeroplanes. Charles Kauffman Okay, and, and just taking a step back. You know, converting an aircraft can be a complicated process in normal times, given the travel restrictions that are that are in place and some of the other wrinkles and complications that have come out of COVID. How much do I mean? How many additional layers of complexity has that added to the process of inducting and taking root delivery of some of these aircraft, Dave Andrew it's difficult to even try and explain that you're at and every day, I think as we think we've got it sorted, something else pops up and it becomes another wrinkle, as you say, to the process. So real kudos to our team that have managed to get this stuff sorted and managed. But you're are trying to inspect aeroplanes in foreign jurisdictions, moving them just ferrying them to the conversion centers, and then collecting them afterwards. And bringing them back again, is a huge challenge on its own. Thankfully, with our long haul operation in and out of China, we've been able to move people on our own aeroplanes, which at least have made it a little bit easier, but it has become significantly more challenging than For example, when we ran out similar program on the four hundreds many years ago. So it is very challenging. Charles Kauffman As you mentioned, having having those those own operated connections can certainly help with with crew, crew placement and whatnot. So these these incoming freighters represent a sizable investment, obviously, and with air cargo in the spotlight for much of the past year. I'm curious if you've noticed a change in in access to capital and investor appetite in general, for much of what the industry does. Dave Andrew father thinks I mean, aviation certainly isn't the sort of highlights of the moment from an investment point of view. But when we did go out to get funding for the BCF program, we did get a number of interesting and willing investors. And thankfully, we did do a deal to do the financing for the fleet, as you saw from the announcement we made a couple of weeks ago. So it was tough, tougher than it was sort of two years ago. But I think freight is certainly a lot more attractive than passengers at the moment from an investment point of view. so thankful that we got that done, then we can move the project ahead. Charles Kauffman Alright, well, congratulations on that. Thank you on the road. So in looking at I mean, obviously today that 77 800 BCF is is the focus fleet type. But we also have now have two certified Hb 21 conversion programs and things are starting to pick up on on that front. The ASL group does have a couple of 757 200 freighters in its portfolio, what are your thoughts on on on this model? Based on on what you're seeing today? Dave Andrew I think the sp 21 is going to be a good freighter. You know, our requirements of fi top are really driven largely by our customers as we're a service provider to them rather than, you know, if you're running your own passenger airline, you can choose your top and you can operate them much simpler, you know, easy to have a single dedicated time. that's largely why we have such a broad and diverse fleet staff across the ESL group. So I think they through 21 will be a good traitor. I think it's a little bit more complicated than for example that I tundras because of just the fact that there's multiple engine types, multiple different sdcs. But I sure think it's going to be a good fighter going forward. Charles Kauffman Something something potentially to to watch. And then speaking of your customers in, in recent years, how have growing ecommerce volumes manifested in demand for for a CMI lift in some of the regions you serve? Dave Andrew I think as everybody talks about it, I mean, there certainly has been a significant improvement or increase in that market and demand. And I was just thinking the other day, could you imagine if we'd had COVID, 20 years ago, when there was no online shopping, just what our world would have looked like today. I know my family certainly wouldn't have survived without being able to order their stuff online. So it has become a significant part of our business, not just aviation, but the whole logistics space. And I'm sure that's going to continue to grow going forward. So you know, I mean, I think at the moment, we've probably about 10 or 12% of our fleet is occupied in the e commerce business, some directly some of it sort of partially where we have partial loads from them. So it is a significantly growing part of the business and something that will do so going forward. Charles Kauffman Okay, that's, that's, that is pretty, pretty significant. So that's, that's e commerce as opposed to express. Do you have any expectations for how specifically that might evolve over the next three to five years for, for ASL and for the region, as a whole that a ratio of e commerce to express. Dave Andrew Although it's difficult to say, I think I can only speak clearly for our own business. But I mean, we'd certainly like to see that continue to grow with our various customers in those various markets. I think the Express business is picking up just as much of the e commerce as the dedicated ecommerce businesses doing. So I'm sure both will continue to grow. The whole online shopping experience, the ability to deliver products within the same day or the next day is going to continue to grow. So I'm sure both parts or segments of the business will continue to grow going forward. Charles Kauffman Okay, and I do want to we do have some audience questions coming in. So I want to make sure that we have Trump, we have some time for those. The next one is with capacity so tight, how do you see a CMI trending over the next 12 to 24 months? and to what degree will will pricing Titan pricing Titan? Dave Andrew Think it is very much a supply and demand market at the moment. And I mean, at the moment the demand is way more than what there is capacity, particularly on the long haul side. And as such, we've seen the increasing yields across the UK market. We see it perhaps perhaps a little bit slower in the narrowbody market, but certainly heading in the same direction as the the demand continues to grow. Charles Kauffman Okay, and I feel like maybe we focused a bit heavily on the EU regional market. Another audience question. asks, given your experience in in Africa, Dave, how would you assess that market in terms of a CMI opportunities for Express and e commerce? In Africa? In the Africa region? Yes. Dave Andrew I think at the moment is probably a much bigger amount than normal, largely because of the fact that there is less passenger belly space available within the region. But I'm sure the African ecommerce demand will continue to grow as well. Probably not as quick as what has grown in Europe, but it will certainly continue to grow. Charles Kauffman And so demand is growing. But are we are we starting to see it manifest in terms of dedicated traders? Or do you do you expect that potentially to happen or is much of what we're seeing today still confined within within Express networks more broadly? Dave Andrew I think the Express networks are growing, certainly within Africa. And I think there's been some dedicated freighter growth within the region. But as I say, certainly not as quickly, I think is what the European and North American markets have grown. But there has been some couple of operators have taken on dedicated writers and added additionally to that. So it is growing but probably a little bit slower than some of the other more. Charles Kauffman Okay, and moving back to the slides and then much of our discussion in some of some of the panel sessions from from yesterday focused on on the the growth of the medium wide body segment and Seven, six sevens and a 330s. Obviously, ASL does have exposure to this segment, do you see aasl enlarging its presence and exposure to this size category of freighter? Dave Andrew 12. Again, as I said, our fleet is largely driven by our customers requirements, but I certainly see that size of the market growing Yes. You know, particularly I think on some of the e commerce operators looking for more capacity on certain routes. So I can certainly see more of those becoming available. I think the change that the COVID has brought about on the availability of feedstock will also mean that there'll be more of those aircraft available for conversion and hopefully that will free up cut that will make capacity available for potential customers and then obviously operators like ourselves Charles Kauffman Okay, and if I if I look at the the ASL group fleets, I see, you know, primarily all Boeing fleet, and then a handful of a 330s and a three, a 300 freighters primarily operated for, for for DHL, when it comes to to pilot recruitment. You know, has has that situation changed over over the past year or so with with some of the redundancies we've seen on the passenger side of business, or Dave Andrew I mean, sadly, you know, the COVID impact on the passenger industry has not just parked the airplanes, but it's also freed up all the people as well. So yes, there is certainly a larger pool of available pilots at the moment. You know, as hopefully the market recovers and that spools up slowly that will be absorbed back in To the business, but there certainly are more pilots available than there was sort of two years ago. Yeah. Charles Kauffman Okay, and, you know, moving up, one when additional gauge by ASL has has added a couple of 747. to its to its fleet, what are your What are your thoughts on on expansion opportunities for that platform? Obviously, those are those are tough to come by in today's market. But yeah, that 747 or or looking ahead to other large wide body platforms. Dave Andrew As you're right, I mean, we'd certainly like to add some more to that fleet, particularly in the current market, I think a couple of years ago, nobody would probably able to give them away, but right now they're in high demand. And very few, you know, units available, if any. So we certainly have to look at it if we look at it longer term as well going forward. And that wide body, ultra long haul, long haul business, you know, we certainly need to look at what's coming down the line, we have the triple seven 300, converted traitor that's coming out in the next few years, which I think will become a good freighter, and certainly be a good alternative, possibly for the 400 traitors that are slowly getting to the end, because there just isn't any more of them left. So certainly something we want to look at going forward. Charles Kauffman Okay, that says it's good to keep in mind. So we do have a few more audience questions. With the increase in longer term charter agreements. Are you finding customer expectations around ACI agreements changing? Or are those pretty static? Dave Andrew We certainly do see a change in the market, particularly as some of the bigger customers have developed a tendency to try and own the capacity and I put that in inverted commas, but try to ensure they have direct access to the capacity and then manage the operator to operate the airplane for them. So we have seen a bit of that, which is a move away from a traditional HDMI to what they call more a CMR type operation. So there certainly have been some changes in that. Yes. Charles Kauffman Okay, so that's, that's one of the key differentiators are seeing and I guess, more more broadly, you know, looking beyond the the past year, you've been in the business for for some time, what have been some of the most notable changes to to express operations across the the immediate region during during your career. Dave Andrew I think Firstly, I mean, the growth, I mean, if you look at it go back 20 years, you know, the the direct air operations for the various integrators or express market was a lot smaller than what it is today. So the growth has been amazing to see and certainly to be part of, I think, certainly the age of the aeroplanes and I mean, I remember back in the days of seven, two sevens, which were the only fighters that were around and slowly moved into the classic seven threes, which was good technology at the time. But I mean, we now have the new a much newer 800 VCF programs, that a 320 is coming 320 ones coming online. And I mean, in fact, now the new ATR 72 600, which is the first brand new narrowbody freighter ever made. So, you know, there certainly is a serious commitment to new aeroplanes new technology, which of course then helps the environmental aspects as well, better fuel efficiencies, less emissions. So, there's been a serious commitment in that industry to the upgrading and the modernization of the fleet. Charles Kauffman Certainly speaking of modernization and we touched on this a bit earlier, but several 7374 hundreds have already started leaving the aasl fleet and obviously, these arrangements would probably have been negotiated well in advance, but you know, at this point, given the market conditions do you wish that you could hold on to them a bit longer in in the short term or again, based on customer requirements? Dave Andrew Now, I think just based on current demand, we certainly would have liked to keep some of them if we could, as I said, there is increase in demand. So if we could have secured a few more, we could certainly find a home for them. Yeah. Charles Kauffman Okay, and going you mentioned that in line with with modernization there is the sustainability component of bringing in newer, more fuel efficient aircraft and technology. You know, for ASL as a whole what are what are you thinking in terms of near term innovation priorities for for ASL and then Air Cargo specifically? Dave Andrew Charles, it's actually a very interesting question. I mean, other than commitment to ESG program, we've actually done quite a bit of work looking at the new technologies and the innovation that's out there in the market at the moment. And there certainly is a lot of good ideas, great stuff that's being done out there from brand new platforms to alternate fuel sources, alternate power plants, autonomous and semi semi autonomous operations. So a lot of good operations and good things going on at the moment. So to try and be ahead of that and try and stay in tune with that. And then also keep our customers abreast of what's happening. And certainly to see, you know, what we can use of that new technology to complement our services, we've actually launched what we call ASL cargo vision, because we do believe that cargo will lead a lot of these innovation drives to new technology, because I think it's a lot easier to justify flying a pilotless electric fighter plane and a passenger airplane. So cargo is certainly going to play a big part in that change going forward. So the forum we've set up has a number of partners who are innovators and leaders in their various fields. And then together, we keep our customers abreast of what's happening. So that we can try and see how best we can try and engage on some of these technologies to provide a better service or a complimentary service to our customers going forward. Charles Kauffman That's That's certainly interesting. It does seem like cargo cargo can lead the way there on many, many fronts. So that's that's exciting, exciting news. Unfortunately, Dave, we are just about out of out of time. Thank you so much for joining us today. It has been a real pleasure interviewing you. Dave Andrew Thank you, Charles. My pleasure. Charles Kauffman Thank you, you as well. And this does conclude our session. Thank you again to Dave Andrew for joining us. Please join us in session nine for a panel discussion sponsored by Collins aerospace on new freighter types and their role in changing fleet dynamics that will start in just about 30 minutes.

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