Podcast: BBN keen to expand into widebody freighters

Jeff Lee
Hello and welcome to this episode of cargo facts connect, the podcast of cargo facts, the newsletter of record for the air cargo and freighter aircraft industries for over 40 years. I’m Jeff Lee, editor of cargo facts and it’s Friday, the 9th of May. Turkey is home to five freighter operators, and the youngest of those is BBN Airlines. At Cargo Facts EMEA, which took place in Istanbul for the first time this week, I sat down with the carrier’s fleet director, Doug Anderson, to hear more about BBN’s beginnings, its A321 freighter operations that began in 2023, and its ambitions as launch operator of the upcoming Mammoth 777-300ERMF.

Jeff Lee
Well, Doug, very nice to meet you here at cargo taxi every year in Istanbul, where your Carrie has been. But first of all, why don’t you talk to us a bit about your background and how you came to work with media.

Douglas Anderson
First of all, I’m an oil man. Came from the oil industry. 200 years ago, I worked for British Aerospace at Prestwick and jet streams. We did a joint venture with the TR back in the 1996 so they asked us to move to Toulouse. We moved to Toulouse, and then I got involved. I was in procurement originally, and then I got involved in the maintenance planning department. The vendor contracts were powered by the hour, stuff engineering, maintenance engineering I was responsible for. And then I got fed up with British airspace, to be honest with him, and Airbus approached me. I joined the Airbus in 2001 and about 2004 or five. They asked me to join the sales organization, having been the Customer Support Guy and I was looking after Turkey the stands, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria Moldova, that kind of round Turkey, if you like. So then I joined the previous sales guy for Turkey, Gert Sharman, delightful German guy. He retired, and he says, I think we want you to I think you should replace me. So I was the Airbus sales guy here for 18 years, 19 years. So I have, I got to know everybody quite well in the industry, and it’s a very like kind of most industries in most countries, I was quite small community, and got to know everybody, and they all got to know me. I left Airbus at the end of 2023 and I wondered what to do. I couldn’t contemplated working for an MRO, small MRO in Toulouse. I offered a job there. I have a Turkish fiance, so I thought I might look for something in Turkey. And two, an airline came to a manufacturer came to me first, not this one here, but BBN came to me. And I really liked the idea when they had never worked in an airline. It’s quite nice. Thought. It would be quite nice to see from the other perspective, rather than the manufacture. And I knew a lot of the guys. I didn’t know the two the CEO and the chair and the Managing Director, but I knew some of the guys in avia solutions board, and they said, We want you. So I came. And as I said, the reason I came was apprehensive about coming to Istanbul, because there’s 25 million people here, or whatever, and I lived in a village of 652 in France. So it’s kind of different. But the dynamics of what the Managing Director, gokcen and Fatih were talking about for the group, as well as for BBN itself, you know. And I saw what they had done in a year and a half, they had, there’s a startup airline, yeah. And they grew to think of when I started. They had seven aircraft in in a year and a half, and they had everything in place. It was, it was extraordinary. And I thought, and I know the way that the Turkish work ethic is on, I was just very impressed with that. And then when they explained a little bit about their longer term ambitions, not only as BBN, but also the group, yeah, so that’s why I’m here.

Jeff Lee
Here you are. Well, yeah, speaking about their ambitions. Now, obviously BBN has three. Entered the cargo market now is three, 321, how has that changed the business? And how are those A321s performing for you?

Douglas Anderson
Okay, the 321s are actually old ladies. They are all leased from one leasing company, from BBAM, and they have. I mean, the airline was actually started with the intention of being a cargo airline, essentially because the two key characters, rights, M, N, G, A, C, T, that’s their background. So that was their intention, I think, at the beginning, the airline started with it with a vision to become a cargo. And but the time, I mean, we had, the group had ordered, booked slots at Mammoth, for the triple seven, as you probably aware, 300 mammoth er mf, and it was a little bit late in coming. So what do we create an airline? We got to do something, rather than twiddle with your thumbs. So they got some passenger aircraft to get the AOC and up and running and get us moving, get some revenues coming in, which they did very quickly, good support from air cap, Dae and BB AM, ultimately, for the cargo aircraft, the cargo aircraft are all they are. They’re operating very efficiently for us. They are. We have a very good contract ongoing with Turkish Airlines. We’re supporting them. And as I said to I said to a lot of people, you know, having having grown with Turkish Airlines, if you like, all the airlines in Turkey, the Turkish Airlines, 72 aircraft when I started. It’s now got 550 in 15 years. Yeah. And part of that was the cargo aircraft. For example, they took the two test, 330, 200 two hundreds, from, from, from Airbus. I sold them to them, and I saw that the the with the growth of th y and Pegasus, the Turkish Turkey, was become Istanbul was becoming a hub like it was. If you want to go back to 9000 years. It’s always been a center for for for trade and industry and imports and exports. So with the growth of Turkish allies, that has helped everything, the infrastructure, grow in that in the same, similar way. So I can hear, I know, I know that there are parts of our group who have been struggling with, perhaps the freighter 320 ones, for example. But here in Istanbul, it’s growing. And we started with two. We were a little bit hesitant about the third one, to be perfectly honest. Third one came, and now we’re talking about perhaps a fourth, because all the business we have the Turkish Airlines is it’s was enough for three aircraft, potentially four, and then the we do our own ad hoc operations as well, and that’s gradually growing. And the very we are a small company, but we’re a very reactive company. We answer the telephone at 11 o’clock at night. Can you get us an airplane here by nine o’clock and tomorrow morning? And we can do that. And that’s and there are a few, not many companies that do that, and I think that’s one of our advantages. Guys are getting well known, and we also were witnessing five aircraft to Egypt. So we know, to some extent, we’re a little bit reliant on Turkish Airlines. But you know, having worked for Airbus and knowing the Boeing guys and knowing the problems that they have in delivering a new kit, then you know Turkey, Turkish Airlines are going to need that additional capacity for some considerable point in time when we get the triple seven, which is scheduled around November time, and there’s a meeting at five o’clock today. We have every week just to keep an update on where the craft is, where the certification is, where the STC is. I think you’re probably well aware certifying the 201st and by analogy, a lot of the engineering transfer on to the 300, and that flew the 200 now. So they’re quite hopeful. But, I mean, we have a lot of concerns about it. You know, I think a lot of people are very quite cynical about or analytical about how this is actually going to work with the. Uh, increased weight, you know, weight of the aircraft, etc. How’s that? Who’s that? Tie in with FMS, systems, etc. Are we going to need additional training, etc? So we have some concerns, but we see that we can’t have one aircraft. Just doesn’t make sense. So we’re probably looking at three, perhaps four again, initially, it’ll be with Turkish Airlines, because that’s easiest way when you’ve only one aircraft to potentially setting up our own little operation Far East US pounding tariffs, bring it into Istanbul and then spreading out using the network. Is here. It’s here. The network is here. The Turkish Airlines are huge capacity of the triple seven belly cargo and the 321 complements that perfectly, and caucus and Uzbekistan and roundabout, and that’s because of the geographical location of Istanbul. That’s in a nutshell.

Jeff Lee
Yes, interesting. And thanks. I was actually going to ask you about the triple sevens, but you’ve answered that now in terms of the mix between the ACMI flying for Turkish. And as you were saying, your own

Douglas Anderson
Ad hoc stuff

Jeff Lee
Right. How do you see that that mix changing as we, as you, get more and more freighters?

Douglas Anderson
I don’t think we’re going to get that. We’re going to get the wide body freighters, which we will probably Turkish lines, because of the lack of deliveries of the big wide bodies. I mean, the 350 you know, I was in the process of selling the 350 when I left, but it was all Virtually Done. And the delay in that means, I think it gives us an opportunity. Turkish Airlines, cargo business has grown exponentially, and it will continue to do so. So I think in support of what they’re doing with them, with the lack of demand or lack of supply of new kit from the OEM, I think that’s going to give us an opportunity. Me, I know I was instrumental in pushing industrial cooperation between Airbus and Turkey and Turkish technic and EFW are now doing the Turkish techniques are now doing the conversion, the EFW STC, which is fabulous. Turkish eyes are the biggest 330 fleet in the world, or used to have, and I can see that they will be converting some of their aircraft into freighters themselves, but slightly smaller aircraft, as you’re aware, the the big, big, wide body, I think we will be supplying Turkish Airlines as well as doing our ad hoc.

Jeff Lee
So, speaking of the A 330 how? How interested are you in that platform?

Douglas Anderson
We have, we have a couple of instances where we were looking at it. We were very seriously looking at it. We’re looking for aircraft. It was a very specific contract, and perhaps some of the relationships between our senior management in your in BBN had that that network, yes, why not? You know, there’s big but there’s a big but there’s a big issue that maybe it’s I don’t, I don’t, haven’t heard anybody really talking about it here. There’s a big pilot issue. We don’t have enough pilots in this in this neck of the woods, and there are some constraints, justifiably, perhaps they have a certain amount of have to be Turkish people, and that’s a constraint that the airlines are have in Turkey are having, and They’re starting to steal one another’s pilots, they have a doctrine that says, right, you can’t steal any between this month and this month. But these are constraints that we have. We can see that however, pilots, being pilots, they want to fly the biggest thing available. So if we’ve got triple sevens in the front, then maybe that’s going to be an attractive way, bringing the younger guys in, maturing them, and then

Jeff Lee
Are you already hiring pilots for the triple sevens?

Douglas Anderson
We aren’t yet. We have a lot of experience. Guys. I mean, a lot of our guys are over 50, and, you know, we would need to retrain some of them. Perhaps we would, you know, there are, you know, working Turkish Airlines, you’d be flying a lot of hours. Yeah, maybe coming into a freighter business, just flying freighters for us might be attractive. So we’re at the point of looking for them. I mean, I spoke to Gerken, Captain, that head of flight operations, and I’m saying, Be ready. It’s coming in November. Wait and see.

Jeff Lee
There really isn’t a lot of time.

Douglas Anderson
No, there’s not. And we’ve got a lot of things to do, but we’re a very small, small workforce. We’re 100 people, basically, yeah, if you take care of me, the flight operations, so the flight crew and the cabin crew that we have, we’re 100 people, 120 maybe.

Jeff Lee
So what other preparations are already underway for the triple seven year.

Douglas Anderson
Oh, we’re talking to Boeing. Gosh. I’m trying to get our camo guys wound up. I’m trying to get her standards guy wound up. I’m trying to get our CEO interested in he’s keep he keeps like, Wait till SDC he’s done weekly stuff. And I said, that’s gonna be too late. It’s gonna be too late. We’re already we’re kind of mapping out what we need to do. We’re in touch with Boeing. We’ve got all their documentation, access and stuff. We are in touch, as I said, we have a weekly meeting with mammoth to understand where they are. We need to get, you know, we’re starting to spec with supplier furnished or the buyer furnished equipment. Sorry, we’re starting to get that spec out as well and defining the cargo loading system, what we want in the aircraft. But as I said, you know, we are leasing the aircraft from avia solutions leasing arm. So they’re also involved in the technical specification of what, what is good.

Jeff Lee
Right, right. And the other ones that potentially those will also come from Avia AM?

Douglas Anderson
Yeah, yeah. We’ve got, we’ve got. The first aircraft is 35299, yeah. Guess what? The next one is 35300. Yeah, it’s, it’s not selected. We’re very fortunate to get these two sister ships. There’s their solution. We’ve got. We’re looking at the engine situation, because the engines are starting to be in shops as well. Because, you know feedstock. You know the earlier discussions yesterday, the feedstock is drying up because the airlines are keeping as passenger aircraft, and we’re getting a little bit concerned about your when, when is this going to stop? You know, the triple 7x is very late Airbus. Aren’t much a bit well, they are a bit better. That’s that’s a big concern.

Jeff Lee
Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s interesting. And you know, good luck to you, as you enter that wide, large, widebody market. Will certainly be an interesting time. And it’s, it’s been impressive to see all the growth, not just with BBN, but with, you know, all the Turkish carriers when it comes to freighters.

Douglas Anderson
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, don’t forget, you know, if you go back when I started, actually, it was, what do we have? We had ULS, or which was Kuzu at the time, Turkish, Turkish airlines, cargo was pretty small. Yeah, you had ACT. You had my that’s basically it was there another one

Jeff Lee
my cargo.

Douglas Anderson
That’s ACT, yeah, part of the same group. There was a lot of cargo aircraft here. Be aerospace. There was a lot of you know, this was, this was the ground of MNG, of course, this was where all the three hundreds were the 300 B twos before. And you’ve got, you’ve got a lot of expertise here. You’ve got a lot of smart cookies. We were calcan, who is now flying. He’s San Marino, so Turkey has always had a maybe it’s because of its geographical location. Back to that it’s a very, very, very dynamic location. It’s a geographical advantage. You can fly single aisle aircraft throughout Europe. You can fly. To halfway down Africa. You know, no other airlines can do that. No other countries can do that. Should I say, because of the geographic location. That’s why Turkish Airlines has grown so quickly, right? It’s but they had to grow from where they were. They were small, 15 years ago or 20 years ago. They had 70 aircraft. Was too small for the size of the country, 85 million people, and now they’re creating serious damage to the likes of Lufthansa Air France. Lufthansa used to fly six times a day into Istanbul. Now they’re flying once. Anyway, I’m talking about Ataturk Airport. Turkish flies to 14 cities in Germany. They fight to seven cities in France. Air France fly 220 once a day into Istanbul once a day. Yeah. These guys are starting to really exercise their their strength. And it’s pure geographical similar to India. You know, if you look at the map, India is like a third of the way in from the Eurasia continent, and Turkey a third in the other way. So these are going to be the two big, my opinion, going to be the two big powerhouses, and it’s happening with India right now is very dynamic, and they’ve got 2 billion people.

Jeff Lee
Yes, well, and BBN will be making a making a name for itself on the global stage with its triple seven freighters.

Douglas Anderson
Inshallah, as they say.

Jeff Lee
Well, thank you so much for your time, Doug.

Douglas Anderson
No problem.

Jeff Lee
That was BBN Airlines Fleet Director Doug Anderson, talking with me at Cargo Facts EMEA 2025 in Istanbul this week. And that’s all the time we have today. For more coverage of the freighter aircraft and AAM market, visit cargofacts.com. Thank you very much for tuning in, and join us again next time.