Listen: Memories of the ‘Queen of the Skies’

In this week’s episode of the “Cargo Facts Connect” podcast, Cargo Facts Editor Jeff Lee and Associate Editor Robert Luke are joined by Cargo Facts Consulting Senior Consultant Jim Edgar to discuss the departure of the final 747 to be produced — and the legacy of the large quad-engine jet. Edgar shares some of his memories from his days at Boeing — including a conversation with the “Father of the 747,” Joe Sutter — and the editors revisit the competition in the large-widebody segment. Tune in for a discussion of these topics and more for the week ended Feb. 3, 2023. A transcript is available below. This transcript has been generated by software and is being presented as is. Some transcription errors may remain. Robert Luke Hello, and welcome to this episode of cargo facts connect the podcast of cargo facts, the newsletter of record for the air cargo and freighter aircraft industries for over 40 years. I'm your host Robert Luke, associate editor of cargo facts. Jeff Lee And I'm Jeff Lee, editor of cargo Facts. And today we have our special guest joining us Jim Edgar, Senior Consultant of cargo facts consulting. Hi, Jim. Jim Edgar My pleasure to be with you today. Jeff Lee There's a very good reason why we have you here joining us today, of course, because this week was a pretty momentous week. We had, of course, the final flyaway of the final 747 Boeing has produced right. So very special moment. And this actually means something else for you having previously worked with Boeing, doesn't it? Jim Edgar Yeah, just about from the onset on my career with Boeing, it involved some phase of 747. And lots and lots of memories, and obviously, was monitoring a lot of very special news items and videos and testimonials. And it really was kind of an emotional week, as a matter of fact. Jeff Lee So yeah, I mean, just watching the I assume you were watching the live stream, but what were the main things that stood out to you, as you were watching that? Jim Edgar Well, at the risk of not allowing you or Robert, some similar observations, I, there's so many things that come to mind, besides the 55 year production, run the 1574 units that just so many things, but from a cargo standpoint, and even passenger, for that matter, I have tried to summarize and these are these are the main impressions and things that came to mind. First of all, when the 747 was first envisioned and launched and of course, it was optimized as a freighter it it basically doubled the size of the aircraft, it was replacing the the 707 the DC8 to some degree, the VC 10 il 62. But in any event, a dub going doubling the size of the current models is quite an undertaking. Of course, they did that in a record 16 months from envisioning it to actual the first prototype. But besides doubling the size of both the passenger and the freighter I think it really globalized passenger travel, opened it up to many new customers and certainly globalized air trade in terms of the range that it offered the size the economy's. So that's kind of from a market standpoint and engineering standpoint, pretty remarkable. But as I thought about operationally what it did to our business, because of course, I started my career on the ramp at LAX. So I'm pretty familiar with how things were done before the 747. I think two things stand out. First of all, the nose door unique and obviously the cockpit and upper deck was put above the main deck so that it allowed long and outsize loads to be loaded through the nose that was very significant. And then number two, most people don't realize that because of the immense size of the 747. Both the main deck pilot palettes that we are very familiar with now, as well as the LD three was developed in direct response to the introduction of the 747. So those were major major events in in our air cargo realm. First the size, the opening international intercontinental markets, and then the the load devices that we use routinely. And just kind of take for granted now. So those are I've given you way more than I intended, but those are so my impressions is I recounted the history of the 747 and really, how remarkable it was and what a groundbreaking You can the aircraft it was at the time and continues to be. Robert Luke That is awesome, Jim, thanks for sharing. You know, aside from the 747, the concept initially being designated for free to service and actually the last production model being a freighter, one. The first question I'll ask is, what are some of your most fondest memories about the aircraft, whether direct working experience or, you know, working with Boeing on a few of the projects that grew with the different versions and production models? And just from a personal standpoint, because I'm curious about this, when did Boeing retire this freigher type a little prematurely? Jim Edgar Well, now you're asking for opinion. But let me answer your first question, Robert. back a little over 20 years ago, when the seven four dash 400 was beginning to show its age, shall we say a little bit, usually we figure about a 20 year production run. And anyway, about 20 years ago, Boeing took the initiative to begin conducting a very high level by invitation only with our biggest freighter customers, a meeting every six months to talk about what would be appropriate and what our customer airlines wanted, in terms of a replacement for the seven the very successful seven for seven days. 400. And at that time, we had, you know, all the the usual suspects, the very important freighter customers all over the world, we tried to have geographic diversity, business model, diversity, the Express carriers, general cargo combination carriers, all cargo carriers, and so on. So we held this meeting every six months, months over all over the world at different locations, putting together product development product strategy engineers, together with our customers, and then would report back on what was possible in any way the latest developments will. During the course of that, I had the opportunity and privilege and I still counted a huge privilege to really get to know Joe Senator on a personal basis, and travel with him actually to these meetings and spend some serious one on one time with him. And first of all, I'd have to say Joe never held back. He he was very, very bright. That if you don't know who Joe Sutter is, he's the chief engineer of the 747. He led this incredible team on the 747 journey over 16 months to come up with a prototype. So he had a real strong history within personal investment in the aircraft. So anyway, I got to travel with him and get to know him and interact with him regularly. So one recollection comes to mind. And we were making our way to London Heathrow on a flight together seated next to each other and, and as we were taxing at Heathrow, I looked out the window. And there was a Singapore Airlines dash 400 passenger aircraft and that particular aircraft had a decal or something on its fuselage that said 1000 747, and ultimately 1500 74 were produced. And I looked over at Joe, and I said, Joe, look at that. I said in your wildest dreams, did you ever imagine that there would be that many seven, four sevens produced and a little smile cracked on his face, and he shook his head and he said Jim never never imagined because of course 747 was an interim aircraft. Passenger started with a 100. But ultimately, it was going to be a freighter converted to a freighter and the SS T would take over. So anyway, I that's one of my most memorable among many, many recollections of Joe. And in the fact that they ended up with 1500 74. And that was the 1000s I think says a lot about the the the aircraft its adaptability in so many different venues and situations and usages and just a remarkable remarkable achievement. Any way you want to look at it. Jeff Lee Yeah, that's amazing that you got to fly with him and talk to him and because I mean, the there's a special decal on this final aircraft of of Mr. Sutter, which is fitting I was also gonna say it's, it's also fitting that the 747 was originally or was always envisioned to be a freighter. So kind of full circle moment. And this final one is a dash eight freighter. And I was, I wonder how many seven four sevens? Have you flown on, Jim? Jim Edgar Oh, my goodness. I have no idea. I wouldn't even begin I have. I do keep a personal flight logs. So I could go back and count him as an analyst but not maybe that detailed. Jeff Lee Yeah. Rob, have you flown on any seven four sevens? Robert Luke I was just about to say I would love to just trade from one of those flight experiences that you have in your personal flight Lord, Jim, because I have yet to fly on one. So hopefully before they actually do come to a foreclosure, I'll get the opportunity to experience that. And, you know, definitely say I've enjoyed that opportunity to board one and not take a flight. However, when I worked at Logan, I used to constantly be around and sometimes helped work on a 747 200 from Northwest that operated those at that time, as well as British British Airways when they had them coming into Logan International, but never got a chance to fly one. Jim Edgar So let me just add one more personal anecdote that I think any listener that's ever flown on a 747 can relate to the the first flight of the, you know, the very first 747 that was that's now at the Museum of Flight Boeing Field in Seattle was in 69. And they were in or the 747 was introduced by panorama course, transatlantic, in early 1970. January 1970, will march of 1970. I was returning home on spring break from college. And I booked a seven for seven out of JFK to Los Angeles. And again, this is something I think anybody can relate to that's that's traveled on a 747. I was used to seven o sevens. And as I entered the aircraft from the jet bridge at JFK, you know, there was no DC 10s. There was no l 10s. There was no a three hundreds, there was no wide body aircraft at that point. And to enter the interior, the cabin of a 747. Having never done so before. It was an incredible experience, how large it was how spacious it was. And I was just struck by the size of it. It was just incredible. Jeff Lee Yeah, there is something special when you walk in and you see those stairs going up to the upper deck. I mean, yes, the 380 also has stairs, both the front and at the back. But I feel like that there is something different about lesson four, seven, and its upper deck. And I've been lucky enough to travel on the upper deck of both four hundreds and dash eight, actually. And so obviously, I used to when it's 7474, hundreds were more widely in service on the passenger side. I used to fly on them quite a bit going back and forth between Hong Kong and London. So yeah, I've I've flown on a few more or more than a few seven for seven for hundreds. But yeah, it's still very special. And certainly on the dash eight, but I have never, I don't think I don't recall having ever flown on a 747 freighter so and that but I know that's pretty difficult to arrange for someone who's not a pilot, or doesn't work in the airline industry. But yeah, we'll see if, if that happens. Because I mean, I guess the final one is left a factory but of course they will be continuing to apply for many, many years. But that takes us to the future. And this is something we've talked about before the future of the large wide body Freighter segment. And as we know the this rivalry between Airbus and Boeing and the 350 F and the triple seven dash f is continuing to heat up and we now have some new customers and more potential ones this year. But I'm and also on the large wide body segment several things happened or we've reported on several things this past week and the first of those is that UPS confirmed to us that they have now started retiring their MD elevens. So they've now sent to to the desert and they are basically replacing these with new seven six sevens as they come in because they've got multiple units coming in this year seven I think, and more in the following years. But it is interesting because they do not have a any large wide body freighters on order so we'll see what happens there. And this is, you know, at the same time, FedEx is also what FedEx has now retired all of its MD 10s and has also started parking again, some of its MD elevens. But Rob, you also reported on another story on the wire large wide body conversion side of things. Robert Luke Yes, we're starting to see a startup group out of the Asia Pacific definitely make some rapid advances right away fly meta, Hong Kong excuse me, Hong Kong based fly meta started off with their own controlled 747 400 which is currently being operated by air Atlanta Icelandic recently confirmed that they have placed an order for some triple seven 300 ers s that they will be partnering with AerCap to have the full conversion set completed. Through IAI Israeli aerospace industry. So we're looking forward to them and the movement with that announcement that came through this week as they expect to have the first two if I'm not mistaken, coming into conversion and full completion by 2024. With the remaining to follow in 2025. So we just wanted to acknowledge that as that is definitely groundbreaking news to report on this week. In closing, I will just reflect back and just say Jim, you know, it's definitely awesome to hear the wonderful stories and Gino reflecting on your time with Mr. Sutter. You know, that was definitely not a coincidence for you to be able to fly with him to London and the Dow The 1000 produced 747 was there waiting for you guys to kind of give him a sense of nostalgia and put some, you know, encouragement into him as he continues to try to push for the programs continuation. You know, that was definitely historic all on a personal and professional note. And you know, again, we will miss the queen of the skies because literally the 747 gave birth to the large wide body segment. So that's all the time we have for today. For more and more multimedia coverage like this, search cargo Facts connect on iTunes and Spotify and search cargo facts.com. Thank you very much for tuning in. And join us again next time. Subscribe to Cargo Facts Connect on iTunes or Spotify , or download the episode on Transistor . Cargo Facts EMEA, the essential event for stakeholders in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, will take place live Feb. 6-8 in Dubai. Register today.

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